300W electric bikes? An update on the legislative process
Ranking ‘new’ fuels from best to worst…
August 22, 2007‘Topsy-Turvy companies’… are we in Oz ‘getting it’?
August 23, 2007PWF stats show a lot of interest in the legal upgrade of electric bike power from 200W to 300W. Graham Bradshaw, EO of the Retail Cycle Traders Industry, advises on progress towards 300W bikes being legal in Oz without a licence.
The bicycle industry can’t give timelines in this long process but it IS working with the RTA towards a clarification of the rules that SHOULD lead to an increase in legal power levels. NSW is providing the lead and other states will be able to adopt (or modify or reject) the rules, providing some sort of consistency.
Draft regulations will probably go out for public comment and people will be welcome to assess them. Graham explains the current situation:
“The issue has been clouded by those companies which have been importing and selling what amount to underpowered electric motor scooters (mostly NSW based). The law and the standard clearly say that a power assisted bicycle is one that is designed to be pedalled, and has an auxiliary motor or motors attached. Unfortunately there have been a spate of imports that cannot effectively be pedalled, and the NSW police have clamped down, fairly heavily, on them. The courts have given some different decisions, and as a result of the mess, the NSW RTA is attempting to draft proposals that will leave real power assisted pedal bicycles as they are, and create a separate and possibly registered/rider-licensed category for the ‘scooter’ type machine. Those in government who are looking at the proposals are amenable to an
increase in the power limit for power assisted bicycles, and are reviewing the major regulations in use overseas. I feel confident that a good set of regulations will be produced that will satisfy most people.”
You can reach Graham via email:graham@rcta.org.au, P: 03 9376 1255 F: 03 9012 4219 M: 0417 339 265.
64 Comments
I believe that when the electric bicycle regulations were initially drafted in Australia, Europe was looked to as a guide. I do not think that there conditions should be used when considering the user requirements in the Land Down Under. You terrain is more similar to that which we encounter in the United States and Canada. You have ample open spaces to traverse and are not constrained by the narrow byways of European cities.
In the United States, the maximum power permitted to comply with the Federal low-power electric bicycle law is 750W. The maximum permitted speed is 20 mph. In Canada, the maximum permitted power is 500W. The maximum speed is 20 mph. Both permit the scooter-type, power on demand ebikes, which have limited pedal usage, primarly to assist on steep inclines.
Neither country requires licensing,registration, or insurance.
there is a growing consensus in Canada, where they are seen in a very positive light, that the permitted power should be increased to 750W due to common hilly terrain. We have found over the last several years of producing and marketing ebikes, that they have been involved in few motor vehicle accidents, all of which were the fault of the ebike operator. Our products are very highly visible and are equipped with excellent brake systems, equivalent to those used on motor vehicles.
I feel that it would far more practical for the authorities in Australia to use the North American model as the one best suited to users there. If the objective is to get people out of cars and reduce fossil fuel consumption, it is necessary to put old concepts behind if one is to move forward.
James Wood
http://www.Veloteq.com
I agree the power should be increased to atleast 450 watts,yes we have hills thats where you need extra power only,30 kms on the flat ground is a nice speed,my ebike is my main mode of transport, sydney has shocking public tranport thanks to the private operaters and the roads are clogged up thanks to the private operaters taking over our tollways,also pertol prices are beond a joke we do need a better waY of getting about and the choice too have one.
I certainly agree to allow more power for electric bikes in Australia. I think electric bikes are the future and they are very efficient and economic for moving people over a shorter distance. There is only one driver in most motor cars and it’s such a waste of fuel and very damaging to the enviroment to move with the driver a few extra tons of metal. Cars are also wasting a lot of space. I have seen 1000s of bikes parked near a rail way station or shopping centres in Europe on a very small area. I think electric bikes are especially good for Australia because it makes it so much easier to pedal during hot days and up the hills. Less cars on our roads is always better. There should be a speed limit of about 25KM/h for electric bikes without using pedals but with a higher power limit similar to the US or Canada. The really good thing is that you still can use your pedals to gain more speed or distance and reach the goal sooner with less effort than with a normal bike. Hills can be a bigger problem for normal bikes and you often end up walking up the hills, pushing your bike and loosing a lot of time.
I have a dream
In this dream of mine I see many of these higher capacity electric bikes (Re: Klaus’s excellent thoughts above) replacing half the cars on the road in this ‘grassy plains’ area.
I live in a smaller country town, Teesdale, Vic, of about 1200 people. The bigger town with shops are about 13km away (Bannockburn).
There is no public transport and currently no bike shouldering on the road. There is a cluster of similar towns in the area and there are lots of beautiful country roads and heaps of wind to dump power into bike batteries. Bikes like these would make it an enjoyable 20 minutes to get to the supermarket. Now as for carrying the shopping??
Another creative dream perhaps?
What ever happened to our sense of freedom.
I vote that anyone should be legally allowed to ride an electric bike on the road and that that bike should have enough power to make it safe to do so….the little impact a light weight electric bike would have on our roads would be insignificant ….. we could make electric bikes exempt from registration and license fees as an added bonus ….the petrol guzzling cars can pay for the up keep of roads ….its about time people got some freedom back
I think the concept of an electric powered bike, (or small car, or segway for that matter) is an excellent one and good for the environment. However, speed restriction, not power is the key.
Motorcycles and motor scooters have registration and licensing requirements, and the requirement to wear a substantial helmet for good reason. It is not about the bike’s impact on the road, It is about the impact on the rider and the capability of the bike to withstand the forces applied.A motored bicycle at 20kph would be reasonably safe. I dont know how much higher that speed limit could be pushed but think it should stay at 20. By all means have electric powered bikes and scooters with higher speed limits but then licensing and registration should apply for that category.
I was researching before buying an electric bike. After reading this site and others I won’t, until there is one I don’t have to push up hills; which is the whole point of an electric bike: No? We need to stop all this yakketty, yaketty, yak! All we need is for the RTA to wind up the rubber band and allow more grunt with adequate braking and a safe upper speed limit.
I reckon we should get Clover Moore onto this!!!
You make it sound do simple, but you’re right, there seems to have been an awful lot of yakking…pardon a southerner’s ignorance, but what would Clover Moore be able to achieve – in your opinion?
Well, I was just thinking of someone to champion the cause.
As a champion must not only support but actually believe in the cause, and then be in a position to influence at an appropriate level both action and outcome, I thought ….. well, maybe, Clover Moore.
Clover is Lord Mayor of Sydney. She advocates less cars, less pollution and possibly special city cycle lanes. Clover is also an Independent Member of State Parliament and has access to that process and forum to question the Minister responsible for the RTA on the issue and on progress.
I know she grew up in hilly Gordon and I bet she had a pushbike as a girl.
She just might be prepared to champion the issue.
Yes, I need to get the high powered ebike quick for my hilly Toowong in Brisbane . come on Australia .. stop holding down the reduction on carbon emission !!!!
Rick writes: “we could make electric bikes exempt from registration and license fees as an added bonus ….the petrol guzzling cars can pay for the up keep of roads” In case you didn’t know, electric bikes are, petrol guzzling cars already do.
I disagree with Klaus and anyone who says electric bikes should be speed limited to 20 or 25 km/h. It is relatively easy to do 30 km/h just on pedal power. I particularly disagree with the argument that the top speed that the motor alone can acheive should be limited to 20 or 25. Why is it more dangerous to do 35 if you are not pedalling? Does that make it more dangerous to roll down a hill than to pedal on a flat? Especially if you are rolling at, say, 40 km/h? If not, how is being propelled by gravity any “safer” than being propelled by electricity? Unlike electricity, you can’t turn gravity off, so if your brakes fail, you can’t stop, or you may not be able to; if your electricity fails on a flat, you slowly stop (I won’t consider what happens if your electricity fails on a downhill as you are not likely to be using it whilst rolling). Clearly then, we need to limit the maximum speed that a bike can roll down a hill at, proabably to about 20 to 25 km/h. This doesn’t seem to make much sense, and yet I can’t really fault the logic quirky though it is. In that case, it must be that our premise does not make much sense, and that is, of course, absolutely true; there is no reason to consider a bike doing 35 being propelled by gravity down a hill any differently to a bike being propelled by electricity up a hill or along a flat at 35. If we had electric bikes that were significantly more powerful than the average adult (or shall we say the average person 15 years or older), and that could, therefore, acheive significantly higher speeds than the average person 15 years or older, then we would have to look at limiting the speed. If we limit the speed to 25 under any circumstances other than one of high power motors, then we need to limit the speed of human powered bikes to 25 as well. That is if it is a safety issue (its not, it is more stable, smoother, and easier to control a bike being pushed by a well balanced motor than it is to control a bike that is swaying from side to side, wandering slightly as the rider puts in the elbow grease necessary to get up a hill). No, it is about making sure that electric bikes are as useless as possible. It is about keeping them at “kids toy” status, keeping us adults in our cars (this is to feed the machine, see another post I’ve done) Not that anyone who is writing to this forum would be speaking with those aims in mind, but the government is VERY glad that people are writing it, otherwise they’d have to, and its just not as beleivable when the government says it.
There is no reason to restrict the top speed of electric bikes in Australia while they are in their current form. Nor will there be a need for it if the proposed change to 300 watts comes in. ALL pushbikes ridden by someone over the age of about 14 already has a 300 watt motor (the rider’s legs) with no restriction on the speed it can do, other than the physical limitations inherent in a 300 watt motor. A 300 watt motor plus 300 watts of pedal power is about the same as pedalling hard down a decent hill, so there is no reason to restrict the speed of that combination either. We have to get away from the idea that a motor makes it dangerous; it doesn’t. Oh by the way if you are worried about your kids injuring themselves on more powerful bikes, then I should mention that I support a minimum age. None of the comparisons i have made between human and motorised power output would apply to someone younger than 13, so they perhaps should not have access to an electric bike that could get them going faster than they coudl on their own, which they may not be ready for.
See, logic makes good laws.
If they are truly serious, perhaps they should consider the 750w limit the US has..
I commute 28 kays through the week on my bike every 2-3days in Canberra up hills that get me quite fit, if I had a bike that let me not have to pedal up the hills then I would ride every single day and leave my car at home!
But there is NO incentive for me to buy a stupid 200w bike or kit which won’t actually do much more than give me a boost….
Raise the limit of powered bicycles to a realistic figure (at least 1hp!!) and people will start using / buying them.
In the book, Physiological Assessment of Human Fitness by Peter J. Maud and Carl Foster, Figure 6.1, the Peak Power Output through cycling is shown at around 1kW.
I’m fairly sure that 200W is what a human can do continuously.
If you look at the International Human Powered Vehicle Associations web site, ‘http://www.ihpva.org/hpva/hpvarec7.html#nom10’ you will see land speed records past 120kph
I broke 80kph while rolling down a hill many years ago.
As Mike stated earlier, gravity is with you when rolling down a hill, so if you were to break at 80kph up a hill, or on the flat, you would stop earlier than breaking down a hill.
I don’t think speed limits need to be applied, and I think perhaps power limits around the 1kw sound about right. I agree with John, it’s about time we had some incentive to get out of cars and onto bikes as more than just a hobby.
The same road rules apply to bicycles as do cars but I find it hard sometimes to get out of the way of 100+kW x 1000+kg cars with ignorant drivers and I don’t see how much damage a 1+kw x ~100kg bike could do in comparison.
Perhaps as ‘good will’ all bicycles could be required to pay CTP. Bicycle advocacy groups like Bicycle Queensland already have this.
Being able to keep up with traffic could even reduce the driver road rage against cyclists.
Why are regulations so strict in this country? I’m sure you can deliver more than 200 watts of pure pedal power if you try hard enough, yet what are the restrictions on pedalling hard? I wouldn’t mind betting it would be easy to exceed 200 effective watts riding downhill!
I get the impression we are slowly becoming a ‘nanny state’. Never before have there been so many laws and rules and regulations governing what you can and can’t do! This isn’t to say there should be no laws, but it seems like each year we are having more freedoms taken away. I hate it!
Actually you have to be a first class athlete to deliver more than 200Watts consistently over an hour or two. Interestingly the human body is not much more efficient than a car – converting fuel energy into movement energy with an efficiency of about 20%.
I’ve tried a bike that has a 200Watt motor on some hills around Sydney. It seemed to work quite reasonably.
300 Watts sounds useful for an efficient bike/motor combination more than that would start to make me worry about battery drain.
Thanks for all the work on the legislation
Why on earth do we have to apply a special speed limit to a particular vehicle when we already have limits that are applied to be appropriate to the prevailing conditions?
I am 6’5″ tall and about 120kgs and I get quite irritated sitting on a 200w electric pushbike, twisting the throttle and having nothing happen.
Bring on at least 750watts.
The state government’s are going to be slow to allow any reasonable vehicles that don’t add to the coffers. Vehicle registration is fraud in this country as you are required to pay insurance attached to vehicle rego instead of your license. This means a driver-less vehicle is still costing a fortune every year and the state governments love it.
Consolidated revenue the term is. The Bracks gove here in Vic even admitted that they make a profit from registrations because of the insurance.
Anyway, issues like that need to be made honest before we an even get into sensible thought’s regarding reducing the use car’s.
thanks,
dave.
A 200 watt motor is ideal. I ride a 15km round trip for work, 13 minutes to work and 23 minutes home on my powered bike, the return trip on my unpowered bike used to take 40 minutes. The trip home rises from 40m above sea level to 320m, the 200 watt assist provides a great help while continuing to allow me to exercise effectively.
As a nurse in a Cardiology ward it is clear to me the effects of having to little exercise, which may be the case if 750 watt motors become available legally. MOVE more, it is for your own good.
The idea of speed limiting electric bicycles is ridiculous, the average speed I achieve to work is 36 kms/hr, with a maximum of 50+ kms/hr without using the motor at all.
Should we not be moving towards the position of environmentally sound transport, on safe roads with EXSTENSIVE cycle lanes in a manner that reduces morbidity and mortality of humans by encouraging regular EXERCISE? When addressing the issue of cost, surely bigger motors and the larger batteries required to run the motor over reasonable distances cost more to purchase and charge?
I can unfortunately see the state governments all wanting to cash in and start demanding fees for liscensing, registration and some sort of mandatory insurance premium, all of which should be resisted.
I have been riding a Gia Carlo for about 5 years and have had no problems with being pulled over by police as others have had in my area. But just recently a highway patrol aquaintance of mine told me that now the legeslation stipulates that the motor must be de-mountable to be legaly used on the roads of N.S.W
Has anyone else been told this? If so dos’e this aply to electric bikes or petrol powered bikes?
With reference to Ebikes and regulations and the imposition of them, the following may be of interest,
The Vicroads web site “What is a bicycle” makes it clear that if you can put you feet on a foot board, your Ebike must be registered and you licenced for motor cycle!
According to the Wagga Wagga local news paper, the local constabulary will be prosecuting Ebike riders as of Monday 12th May with lack of licence and or registration if the Ebike motor is a hub motor. An attached motor is acceptable, but a motor that is part of the bicycle is not.
Current regulations (appears to be all over Australia) state that the fitment of turn signals (traffic indicator lights) make the unregistered bicycle into a registerable motor cycle!
The 200 Watt standard as quoted in the regulations comes from the requirement that additional power supplied on a bicyle must be no more than an average riders power. I have cronic knee conditions that limit my power output by 50% (coupled with being 62 yo). Can I apply to get an additional 50% power increase in my Ebike to compensate, or am I going to be discriminated against?
I would love some replies to the above.
I have read with interest the news relating to “motor assisted pedal cycles”. I have made a few enquiries into the NSW regulations of these vehicles. I note that the Wagga Wagga Police are quoted as saying “the laws are nothing new”, well if so what has happened? Are they suddenly a menace, are they over represented in road trauma?
If as the Police say “the laws are nothing new” then the exemption from registration for a “motor assisted pedal cycles” continues as before. That would be, a bicycle capable of being pedalled and fitted with a petrol or electric motor of not more than 200watts in power does not require registration. It is simply a bicycle. I can find no NSW legislation which make reference to the assisting motor forming part of or being additional to the bicycle or at what point would a motor be considered to form part of the biccyle
Police refer to an RTA document “Vehicle Information Standard 27” published in November 2007. This document is not a law, it is a poorly worded public information sheet that changed nothing relating to “motor assisted pedal cycles” It does however make reference to Mopeds which are small pedal able motorcycles with engine outputs over 200 watts. The document confusingly advises the users of a “motor assisted pedal cycle” they should obey the same laws as a motorcyclist, which incorrect, they should obey the same laws as a bicyclist. (EG as motorcyclist must wear a helmet that meets Australian Standard AS1698 a bicyclist helmet meets standard AS 2063 and several other differences)
In relation to the power output of these bicycles 200 watts or less. I would suggest that if these are bought with documentation from the manufacturer that says it is less than 200 watts output, then the onus of proving anything else would still lay with the Police. If Police were to dispute the engine output they would have to seize the bicycle as an exhibit and have it independently tested. This would be expensive and out of proportion with the alleged offence. I am sure the Police have more important and pressing tasks.
Zaffod Beeblebrox
On my unassisted MTB i reach over 50Kmph – I use suction to tail large vehicles in a 50km or 60Km Zone if you peddal hard. Down hill + peddaling easly 60+Kmph I have to overtake slow moving motor vehicles at times.
For roundabouts I sprint to reach around 40Kmph so the cars dont have to tailgate me.
A 750Watt peak Boost assist motor would be similar to my normal maximum peak when riding so the limit should be at least 750watts.
QLD banned PETROL assisted bikes – petrol units are noisy, smelly, gutless ,short lifespan have no pollution controls and – small 2 stroke engines have worse emissions than a modern car engine they should ban these in all states ! unless they meet modern vehicle emisssions standards !
The Electric assist limit really needs to be increased to be at least 750watts , though clever design and better motors can make even 300 watts seem like alot more than just 300.
The new lithium batteries now available mean that now the cost of electric assist bikes or any electric vehicle is very economical. These Batterys are capable of over 5000 cycles providing 50km (assisted) per charge. All up a life range of 250 Thousand kilometers ! Cost a $600 recyclable battery and less than $500 of electricity – a car would use $40000 in petrol alone to do the same – add price ,insurance, and servicing and
Electric assisted bicycles are under 1% total lifetime cost of a car. !
I’ve had an electric scooter for a day now and I absolutely love it.
The problem i have is, I am paying $260 for a set of 3 batteries and I still have to pedal up hills. Thats what i’m most concerned about.
I have pocket bikes (which are only used on the go kart tracks legally) and the cheaper ones have 2hp, and i could get up any hill i choose with that.
With this electric bike (which weighs so much too because of the batteries) i struggle to get to 25km an hour. I feel more of a danger driving it then a bike at times near the road because I can’t actually maintain a speed that i don’t have to look back every 2 seconds to see if there is a car.
There has been some misinformation in these posts.
At the National level, the Australian Vehicle Standards Rules 1999 Rule 10(c) says the standards do not apply to “a vehicle propelled by a motor with a maximum power output of not over 200 watts”
There is some variation in State legislation.
In NSW, Clause 55D of the Road Transport (Driver
Licensing) Regulation 1999 provides that a person is exempt from licensing in respect of
‘…a pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a
combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts’
It’s a moot point as to what is ‘auxiliary’. Probably any true bicycle with a motor attached somehow would be OK. The RTA doesn’t like the ‘scooter’ style of e-bike where there are no pedals or just vestigial ones. They express this in a discussion paper dated February 2008 entitled
RTA:
Better regulation of motor-assisted
pedal cycles: issues and solutions
February 2008
The RTA is pushing for such scooter e-bikes o be registrable. However, they seem amenable to the idea of increasing the power limit of genuine e-bikes to 250 or 300 watts.
In fact, higher powers provide diminishing returns in speed. On the flat, 200 watts gives about 26 km/hr; 300 watts about 30 km/hr, and 400 watts about 33 km/hr. (for an excellent website permitting speed computation, go to http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm)
The difficulty in which regulatory authorities find themselves is that the motor power output cannot be practically determined on the road. One can claim that one’s motor was current limited, for example. Would the police have to carry around ergometers? They are more likely to assess the appearance and design of a putative e-bike.
The RTA discussion paper suggests requiring a power rating to be stamped on the motor. I have objected to this on the grounds that there are plenty of ‘roll-your-own’ conversions around, and in any case, the power output is dependent not only on voltage and current, but also on the speed, since, for hub mounted motors, the power output drops off as the speed drops. When the motor actually stalls — going up a steep hill — the power ouput is zero!
My preferred option is to specify a power to weight ratio rather than gross power, because this will permit new cycle designs to be accommodated. For example, why shouldn’t tandem bikes be allowed 400 watts?
This is an ongoing debate.
In response to Robert Fox’s comment:
From your understanding of the laws, would it be possible to fit a bike with a 48Volt 350 Watt hub motor but then only supply 24Volts of electricity to it? Would this “change” the motor into a 175Watt motor? When the legislation is changed (optimism) to 300W, I could add another battery and change it to a 262Watt motor? I don’t know if this is technically possible.
I added a 200W motor (driving through an extra crown gear on the pedal crank) for the purpose of assisting on the hills around Sydney. Before I was only able to manage three 32km round trip cycling commutes per week, whereas with the kit I am able to cycle every day (and it’s quicker than catching the bus!). Being able to reduce the speed differential on main roads was a welcome bonus, as well as being less sweaty at the end of the journey. I would welcome any increase in the legal motor power level: even with the 200W motor I find my speed is barely over 10kmh on many of the long, steep hills (dragging the weight of the motor and its batteries uphill), and at that speed stability/safety is an issue.
We’ve started a new post with 10 questions about electric bikes. Can you help?
I doubt it will ever get increased, after livin in aus all my life i can tell you the only changes they will ever make ‘wont’ be in your favor..
I’m suprised they even allow electric bikes, i wonder how long that will last
lol here’s a typical example of what i just mentioned
(petrol bikes now banned in QLD)
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/03/14/8799_gold-coast-top-story.html
yet another example RTA (NSW) ebikes banned on public roads
yay for Australia (leading the world with stupid laws)
http://castlehill.yourguide.com.au/news/national/national/general/when-is-a-bike-not-a-bike-when-its-electric/789785.aspx
Quote’s from article
“An RTA spokeswoman denied the organisation had ever advised that E-bikes could be used without registration.
She said they did not meet safety standards and therefore could not be registered. They could be used only in backyards and on private roads. “We encourage anyone who has been sold a bike under false pretences to go to the Department of Fair Trading,” she said”
E-bikes or gofas? Whats the difference? They both scoot along about the same only the e-bike takes up less space on the path or roadway. If the Gov’t is serious about Co2 emmissions this is surely the way to go!
Why WHy WHy is this country so obsessed about regulation. I am sure that they wont stop until every accident is gone(yeah right).
Have we thought about the fact that 18-25 year old males wanna hoon out in cars and do something dangerous cause since they have been born have not been allowed to do anything that might be adventurous. In our feminized namby pamby schools where you cant even get on a swing we are breediing a race of men that have never done anything thats really adventurous. These same people cant get their heads around huge youth suicide rates or why so many boys spend thousands of hours playing kill shoot em up games on computer. Rise up men and be men again and kill off this regulation that is choking our country -not metioning how environmentally responsible any motorized bicycle is. Dont you think its strange they are doing nothing about 2 tonne land cruisers that are neither safe on our roads or environmentally responsible -GET REAL AUSTRALIA! dont be a bunch of sooks -dont just soak up endless more laws that restrict good living.
I suggest 300W max ebikes for people with no car licence, and 750W max ebikes for people with a car licence. If we had bikes and buses only from 8am to 9am and 3pm to 4pm we could solve most of our city transport problems. Unfortunately it won’t happen.
Good thinking Glen – it certainly won’t happen if you don’t get it into the mix! What do you see as the barriers? Habit? Politically too hard? People DO seem to be accepting life has to change…
why not put one of these on your bikes http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180271884145&Category=32636
someone got one registered in WA they should last 10000kms
try this website – http://www.motoredbikes.com/
I own one of those ZBox bike kits & it is not very powerful.
I have to pedal to get moving, I need to pedal to accelerate
& I need to pedal to go up hills. There is just not enough
power for my 115 kg but it’ll maintain its speed on the flat.
I’d hate to have to ride an electric one.
In the old days we had “mopeds’ or “Autocycles”. They had
33cc motors & pushed out 850 Watts of power & they were legal.
(The rule was the motor had to be under 50cc displacement)
Why did they introduce the power restriction??
A reasonable power limit for a motor under 50cc is 2000
(yes, two thousand) Watts. (artificially restricting the power
output of a petrol engine causes it to use more fuel & produce
more emissions)
And, we do NOT need speed restrictions other than the road
speed limit. I used to do at least 70 km/h when I rode to school as a lad. I doubt my petrol bike will do that.
The arguments against higher powered e bicycles seems reminiscent of the days when a flagman was required to walk before the “iron horse
Hi
Why would a person have to be 17 to get a licence for an electric bike with pedals that could go no faster than an ordinary bicycle? I think a child of 10 years old should be able to pass a simple test and acquire one. Surely that would be better than a kid just getting on an ordinary bicycle and riding when he may not even know which side of the road to ride on.
If the motor has 200W stamped on it and for busy roads there are bike trailers on busses with stops every five km http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35870 then at least it is easier than an ordinary bike for a schoolkid or commuter.
Hi,
I just stumbled on to this discussion, and it’s heartening to hear I’m not alone in wanting the power limit raised!
Brisbane is a hilly city, and I live in a VERY hilly part of it. Brisbane is also very humid. I love riding my regular bike to work, but I’m not so chuffed about the gallons of sweat when I get to work, and the over-exertion involved making that final hill on the way home.
I tried a 200W electric bike, and it was practically useless. 400W would be better and 750W was more than I’d even considered might be possible.
Politicians need to make bike travel really viable if they want to get people out of cars, and having a no-license practical electric bike would be a big attraction for a lot of people.
Elections coming to Qld in the next 12 months… time to start lobbying your local candidates, folks!
200w is a joke
300W WILL BE GREAT FOR ELECTRIC BIKES
I HOPE THIS LAW GETS PASED ASAP
THE POLICE ROAD PATROL IS ALREADY STOPPING ELECTRIC BIKE
RIDERS IN GRENFELL NSW AND FINES ARE BEING MENTIONED….
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE??
Why do we let the RTA have all the say. It is our right to have a say as well…..
The Policing of power assisted bikes is almost imposible, UNLESS the RTA set standards and registration/compliance requirements for each and every power assisted bike, a Compliance plate should be fitted, at the very least……….
This can be the responsibility of the industry (Importers)…
Imported cars have to have a compliance plate, so why not all powered transport, including petrol powered bike,mobility scooters and also Segway’s…..
How can the police tell if a car has modified out-side it’s compliance ?? There are a lot more cars on the road than power assisted cycles, so why do they have a problem…
If the powers that be concentrated their efforts on Importers, and retailers,then we would not have the restrictions being forced on us now..
In Queensland we are now faced with the problem of Thousands of petrol powered cycles (legaly under 200 watts) being made redundant, as in, Illegal to ride on the road and pathways.
Is this fair NO
I am now faced with the need to finance another cycle,
when I already have one that has been LEGAL for many years.
From: Elizabeth Meyer [mailto:emeyer@ddlcnsw.org.au] On Behalf Of Info
Sent: Wednesday, 11 February 2009 12:40 PM
To: Micheal french, Sr.
Subject: Your enquiry to the Disability Discrimination Legal Centre
Dear Mr French,
Thank you for your recent contact with the NSW Disability Discrimination Legal Centre.
Your matter
From you email it appears that your matter centres on the following information:
1. You have a disability that is ‘degenerative back problems and hip trouble’ and as such you have difficulty using a conventional bicycle
2. You ride a Gia Carlo Electrical Assisted-Pedal Cycle which does not have a combined maximum output of 200 watts or more
3. Using this motor-assisted pedal cycle allows you (and other people with disability as well as the aged) mobility that you would not otherwise have
4. You believe your Cycle falls within the definition of an ‘exempt from registration’ vehicle under Part 2(15) of the Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 2007
5. Despite this you have been informed by a highway patrol officer that if you drive an unregistered and uninsured vehicle on a NSW road you will be fined
Please let us know if any of the above information is incorrect.
Our research
We have conducted some preliminary research into your matter. In the attached document Better regulation of motor-assisted pedal cycles: issues and solutions issued by the NSW RTA in February 2008 the issue of motor-assisted pedal-vehicles is discussed and in particular, it is noted on page 12 (in the first dot point) that there is a move within the RTA to ensure that a wider range of vehicles becomes exempt from registration s the benefits of these types of vehicles is recognised. You will also note that the Gia Carlo model is set out in Appendix 1 and is one of the exempt models (category AB) – this is because it does not have:
– Foot rests
– Easily removable pedals or chains
– The ability to operate without pedals or chains
– Throttle controlled motors
– Motors marked as above 200 watts
– Motors with power other than electric or solar power
It appears from our research that you should not be fined if you use your motor-assisted pedal cycle on a NSW road so long as you comply with bike safety laws (such as wearing a helmet) and do not exceed speed limits. However, it may be the case that you will not be allowed to travel on roads that cycles are usually restricted on, such as freeways or roads which allow high speeds (for example, highways, where the speed limit is 100 km/h). As you have informed us that you were told you would be fined by a highway patrol officer it may be the case that the officer was referring to these particular roads. If this is the case, then the safety issues involved with having low-speed 200 watt vehicles on a high speed highway may be a justification for the restriction (and possible fine).
Disability discrimination
If you would like more information on disability discrimination and the complaint making process please let us know – we can post you out information or you can access it on our website – http://www.ddlcnsw.org.au. We can also provide you with more specific advice regarding your matter on making a complaint to either the Anti-Discrimination Board or the Human Rights Commission if you wish to do so. However, we will need to obtain more details from you if this is the case. However, for the time being the more appropriate avenue for you may be to contact your local RTA motor registry to confirm that your vehicle is registration-exempt or to address your concerns to the Minister for Roads, Mr. Michael Daley or the RTA’s Director of Network Management, Michael Bushby, (who is currently the RTA’s Acting Chief Executive Officer).
Please note that if you do wish to make a disability discrimination complaint you must do so within 12 months of the date of discrimination.
We hope we have been of some assistance to you.
Kind Regards,
Elizabeth Meyer
Solicitor
NSW DDLC
As you can see if you think you are being discriminated against by over zealous police in nsw you can possibly mount a case of discrimination and their would be similar centres for doing so in all states so since my bike is a 200 watt gia carlo which is legally exempt from registration as are many e bikes a lot of people could sue the gov for discrimination against the elderly and the dissabled so here is yuor chance to get some justice everyone lets give the gov what they deserve in regards to how therve treated electric bike owners,and i havnt been riding on freeways or irresponsibly either so i should have a case.
hmmm, this is interesting reading. Well I personnaly would not use one of those scooter type electric bikes. I am opting for a self build conversion job. I already have the donor frame, and ex 250cc honda cbr. The engine has been removed and will be replaced with battery packs and an Etek motor sytem, 72volt DC.
Range, 50km’s
topspeed 80km, its quite flat where I live and I weigh about 68kilos and will be happy to register it and insure it and ride it as an ICE motor bike.
With motorbike helmet, so what quagmire do I face??
Well, the legislation can get stuffed for all I care. I’m going to the USA next week, and I’m going to buy a Montague folding bike with a Bionx 500HS (500 watt high speed) which is the best and lightest electric conversion they seem to have over there and only available in California.
The decent standard they get over there is at least 350 watts.
Here is a review from someone who got one:
“PL500HS Performance:
I rode the bike over 2 days at assist level 3 doing various commuting stuff (so I had some light baggage to carry) and I was astonished to end up with 45.0 miles!! This was the mileage I hit as soon as all the bars on the battery gauge disappeared (even the little tiny half bar at the end). I probably could’ve gone another 5-7 miles but I didn’t want to push it until the controller turned off.
The 45 miles covered a lot of hills as well. It’s quite hilly where I live! And on the flats, I generally sustained around 23-25 mph”
Why would I bother with what’s available for purchase over here, if I can get a system for the same price in the states that let’s me go 40km/h on flats and really powers up hills for a single charge distance of 80km using 10 cents of electricity?
I hope to go backpacking in NZ and Japan with it as well.
we bought 2 push bikes with sach petrol motors, top speed 20 ks, we rode on the road but since legislation in QLD making it illegal to ride here they now sit in our garage, can they be ridden in other states? will this stupid law be rescinded? hopefully all powered bikes will be seen as the only answer to gas guzzling cars
Perhaps someone could draft a petition letter to send to your state government or local councillor in regards to increasing the power output of electric bikes? I’m not well informed enough on these topics to do so but there have been a lot of good points raised throughout the comments on this article.
It would be much appreciated if someone could do so or if someone could provide guidance as to what would need to be included in such a letter/letters.
I will bookmark this site and check it now and then.
Im with everyone, These 200 W bikes are useless for the Australian terrain. I too am tall and heavy and find riding a 200 W unit ruled out any chance of me using these for my commute. I commute about 100 km per day Able to charge mid day and the average speed is only about 40 km/p/h almost achieved with these bikes. If the government were serious about the environment they would ensure there was at least a 10 year amnesty on registration of these bikes increase to power restriction to a minimum of 500W.
My carbon footprint could be greatly reduced but not ubtil these lays move to this century. I am going to raise a pertition as Mattew suggests lets get this happening.
The US 750w 20m (32kmph) makes sense. Even thou the 32km doesn’t seem much, in 750w there is enough torque to get out of dangerous situation on the road. Current 200w limit is dangerous low power to use on roads apart from that we have lots of hills. Who ever come up with 200w limit must have been extremely limited in any knowledge of simple mechanics and probably thought that if 200w can run a light bulb than it’s fine for a vehicle too.
Or maybe Aussie government think of it’s people as being mentaly limited not being able to handle 750W like they have in USA.
750W it’s ok for them but not ok for us? Whats that supposed to mean?! I don’t know, but an Aussie and American look same to me. Is there something I’m missing here?
Whats the point of limiting the speed of Ebikes to 20kms or so?
I reach 60kms downhills all the time on my non-powered racing bike. They gona try to cap me to 20? Don’t think so.
Lets face it the majority of those making the decisions do not or have not ridden bicycles, e-bikes, motor assited bicycles or scooters.
This is the crux of the matter, without in kind support we will only be viewed as whingers to the policy makers and politician that wait for an opportunity to grab a headline.
Are we serious?
If so lets do something.
Like targeting high level Politicians or a Party for support, whether its the Greens, Liberals, Labour or even a Independant.
1st – lets agree that the whole purpose is to encourage more physical activity, greater health.
2nd – a benifit of which is carbon footprint reduction by using bikes and e-bikes to get people out of cars, buses, trains.
3rd – get the Australian Medical Association (AMA) behind us by validating the facts of physical exercise, even that used on pedal assisted electric bikes.
4th – we collate accurate data from every country currently using electric bikes, their regulations, power restrictions the works.
5th – use the media through outlets like A Current Affair, Today Tonight to embarrass the Governement and Politicians by showing them up as out of touch, behind the times, supporting high carbon footprint technologies over our alternative.
6th – With our unified an fair policy regarding the regulation of e-bikes, we get behind whatever political group wants in, and with our facts, and our policy we support them to get a win – win for both us and whatever politician or party supports us.
IMPORTANT
– we must have real facts
– we must have the policy finalised ready to go
– we must not waver from the end goal once we have started
– we will succeed as a united and determined force for e-bikes
This would take us from a bunch of bloggers to a bunch of actioners.
I look forward to your comments – Mark Williams
I think you will find the regulations are so restricted because of our socialist medical system compared to that of the USA, however Canada operates on a system much like ours and allows 500w bicycles to be used legally. In the USA though, if your involved in an accident on a push bike your looking at around $5,000+ in medical costs unless you have health insurance. It is less out of the governments pocket in the USA for such accidents to happen.
I however believe a 500w system should be allowed here in Australia (I’m Victorian), I own a 200w e-bike and it can not handle even the smallest of hills without very heavy pedalling. I will admit I’m not the most fit person out there, but the motor really does not assist me at all when climbing suburban rises, most times I find myself actually dismounting and walking the bike up the hill instead.
500w would definitely make things a lot easier, my area is full of hills, I would love the freedom to be able to only use the engine when it is required, which is on steep grades. Instead I find myself pedalling the most in these situations, and using the engine only on the flat. It almost defeats the purpose of using an engine in the first place, and can quickly turn one off wishing to continue to take the bike out at all, sending them back into the fossil fuel alternatives.
A 500w system would be perfect to assist in steep grades, while allowing the less fit riders to cycle on normal grades, saving the battery usage only for when it’s required, and in the end giving more freedom to cyclists, adding the ability to travel further and enjoy much more of the beautiful cycling paths which before have only have been available to the fittest of riders.
And yes, I will be posting my opinions into the Government for consideration. I would advise others to do the same, raise awareness of the issues, the people making the laws are most likely not cyclists or even used an electric bike, so they need the facts which we can supply, in a polite and informative way. Abuse will discredit more than just yourself in these matters.
Roy
I have built a 500w electric mountain bike. i didnt know when i built it that there was a silly 200w limit. Anyway the bikes really great and i can easily do well over 35klm in a round trip each day. The trip includes a lot of hill on my way home and I am usually passing other cyclists on my way up them. The 500w electric engine makes hills effortless and i have set the bike up as a pedal assist. I get to exercise without killing myself each day and the trips have become really fun. I can easily go shopping and carry all my shopping home ( I have fitted pannier bags. I know after having the 500w engine that 200ws is an outdated rediculious power rating. The minimum really needs to be at least 500w and better still if its 750w. That would get a lot of people out of their cars and back onto bikes. Every one of my friends that has ridden my bike has been absoultly stunned at how easy the bike is to ride and how great it is at eating up steep hills. Lets face it the govt faces a slow long drawn out process with loads of debates. The worst part is that the majority of people making the laws will have never even ridden an electric bike so will have very little or no actual expierience riding on the road or cycling up hills.
I’ve just returned from the states travelling throughout various parts of the state of California. The electric bike has become quite popular with a wide range of offers. I rode them and had an absoult blast, more so than my normal push bike. I want one to have fun, to go to work and to not use my car as much as possible. However, upon my return to Sydney I find out that were still lagging behind the rest of the world, eg. Europe with 500w, USA with 750w and other countries with 1000w electric motors. But no, the Australian government in its mega ultra conservative manner and more often than not eye raising decisions and reluctant attitude towards improving our ridiculously air polutting traffic congestion that I find to be amongst the bigger offenders in modern society can’t get off their backside and change the eletric bike limits from 200w to at least 500w to conform with the rest of world. 200w does not do anything and cannot assist enough to go up a hill when needed, particularly if your older or want to get to work without being sweaty. Its an absoult disgrace this government isn’t doing more to provide more support in this area. I wish for once the RTA/Australian government would make a decision for the benefit of Australians.
we definatly need a power out put of continuos 1hp=750watts…
with 1500watt max out put thats 2hp,to compensate for the grade of some hilly australia.
like some one else has mentioned above,non motorized assisted bicycle riders,can easily maintain 750watts of power for a while.even peak 1300watts for short burst…..lance armstrong
what Australia needs to introduce is atleast the 750watt(american approach)electric bicycles…anything less is for under 15yrs old with a max out put of 1500watts peak,not continious.would definatly gain greater popularity…
come on aussie,go atleast with the american 750watts
not the euro 250-300watts,fifty,300watts is nothing,
take care
Well I have been riding an electric bike in China for several months now. It is 180 watts and takes me to 25km/h happily without pedaling. The 10Ah battery (now available with 12Ah) is concealed in the frame, reducing the likelihood of theft and aiding in the thermal conductive cooling through the aluminium frame.
Three speed Shimano hub gears help with hills and traffic lights.
There really is so much potential with bikes like these to get people out of their cars more often and reduce fossil fuel consumption.
Come on Aussies! Get off yer sacks and lobby your local MP for better more sensible laws that allow a new industry to grow – how about retraining some coal miners to build and maintain ebikes…?
Ebikes are everywhere here in China and aside from the danger of sneaking up on pedestrians (they are SO quiet!) there are not so many serious accidents as with 2 tonnes of steel regularly doing 40km/h.
So many reasons to make this more available to people – only two not to – laziness of the regulation makers and loss of revenue from people only owning 1 car for long trips or heavy loads. Why follow in the footsteps of Europe when there are more socially accepted norms in USA, Canada, China?
Oh…and my bike only weighs 14kg so 180 watts is plenty of acceleration and hill power.
Unfortunately, I think even this bike would be illegal in the new laws as it has 2 modes – a throttle which you need to pedal to activate but acts as a normal throttle once moving – you can stop pedaling and keep the power on (legal / illegal?) and 50% pedal assist mode – once you quit pedaling the power stops (legal).
Why should I have to keep pedaling to keep moving?
My one desire for this bike would be regeneration – a gentle pull on the brake levers, when going down hill or stopping, to turn the motor into a dynamo to charge the batteries.
The thing to decide first is if electric transportation is to be suppressed or encouraged
If one wishes to suppress this technology, then permitting only underpowered non-useful versions is a great idea.
If these are to be encouraged, then some reasonable rules are needed.
1 ) Place a 750wat 25 km (electronically limited) setting as equal to a bicycle. It is reasonable to require riders using over 250w versions to be over 16 and have a valid beginners driving license (written test showing them familiar with road rules). Obviously safety helmets are needed
2 ) Place a “city-use” designation with electronic limited speed of 60km/h (5000w) and require Moped license and insurance.
3 Place an “electrician motorcycle” class with unlimited power and requiring full capability of highway speeds with all the same safety and driving requirements as gas motorcycles.
To further encourage Electric transportation, set a universal recharging standard, and place recharge stations at ‘point-of-destination’ parking locations.
We have the technology. It’s time to vote in the political will.
I bought an electric bike a few years ago and it sucked.
The reason it sucked is because my driveway and the roads in my area are really steep the motor didnt have enough power to get up the hill . as a result the battery went flat really quickly and in the end i had to push the bike with the added weight of the very heavy battery- very discouraging!
So i think that the wattage should be increased to allow for a bike to be able to get up a hill… i dont think that is much to ask. I figure my hills would need about 1500 watts not 200watts .. jeez who the hell came up with that number must live in a place with no hills. Of course with the new lithium batteries this brings the weight down a bit. I like some of these new scooters coming out they look a lot more comfortable to ride than the somewhat dangerous petrol bike i put together.
i dont get it the petrol bike @ 49cc is legal this is like over 32 Horsepower of power or equivalent to over 1000 watts of power but electric bikes are only 200 measly watts . Wish the government would wake up to itself and let us all have a decent cheap environmentally friendly and quiet mode of transport.
oops i meant to say the petrol bikes use over 2 HP not 32
I am happy with my electric bike. My usual commute is 40Km which takes 1 hour+5-10minutes, the route is mostly flat in North Brisbane and includes off road shared paths as well as major roads. My bike is a Hasa carbon flatbar Hybrid with a Conhis rear hub motor installed. The motor is a 48V 1000w model and the battery pack is a Ping LIFePO4 48v 20Ah model. The cost of these two (+2 chargers) items ordered directly (seperatly) from china was $1200.00 including freight. I had to rebuild the back wheel several times and now use a Velocity Chukka (Made in Brisbane) rim and usually have to re tru the wheel about twice a week. It will do 70Kmph on the flat with a fresh (60v) surface charge and about 50kmph on the hills I climb (I always pedal too). I moderate the speed to suit conditions (I am still alive) however I find it very usefull to be able to keep up with the traffic particularly where I am forced onto Lutwich rd (by the closure of the bike path) and have to share a lane with the B-doubles. If I slow down there I will die. No issues with police, I am sure they have better things to do than book e-bikes.
I agree that the current 200W power limit is too low for Australia because of the hilly terrain and larger distances. It should be increased at least to 250W continuous output power similar to Europe and Japan, so that we can import some of the better ebikes from overseas. Maybe it would be even better to increase it to 300W or even 350W to make it equal to the New Zealand laws and even import more existing bikes from China. I don’t believe that more power is really neccessary. About 300W and your own pedal power effectively double the power of your bike. It really should only assist you getting up hills and maintaining an average faster speed. It is not mend to be a motorbike or scooter.
If our goal is to have commuters using electric vehicles rather than internal combustion engines we will have to make the transition as painless and safe as possible. For a person of average fitness there is just too much sacrifice in personal comfort and safety to use a bicycle to commute say 20k each way to and from work and realistically a 200w motor does not change the situation. Our city roads already have speed limits and all vehicles (in the same lane)need to observe the same speed limits to avoid obviously dangerous situations so lets forget about electronically limiting top speed (unless applied to all road users). The power a commuter requires to meet his or her expectations from an Ebike is going to vary a lot and 200w means that most people will just use their car (average car 100,000watts to 180,000watts) So I guess I am saying that we need something to get average people to use this technology we will have to make it easier and safer. I think John Taylor (above) has the start of a workable solution, just forget about speed limiting. Until it is sorted out I will just continue with my illegal ebike.