Clarifying The Electric Bike Power Upgrade Discussion
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October 24, 2008Craig B – a long-time contributor to the PWF discussion on upgrading the wattage for power-assisted bikes – has written a good, clear picture of the situation. We welcome your comments.
“Hello All,
Back again, I thought that I would let you know about the study by Monash Uni, found on the Cycling Promotion web site. They actually spoke to government departments, politicians, did trials and looked up hard international data. You can find it here: Power Assisted Bicycles Final Report Monash Uni.pdf.
The report expected the National Road Transport Commission to resolve these sorts of issues on a regular 12-18month basis. That was back in 2003.
I don’t have the same dark view of the government as stolennomenclature, but agree that the government doesn’t have enough political will to make changes. This is partly because of the difficulty. They have to make it safe, they have to make it useful and they have to write the legislation so that everybody is clear about its meaning. Finally, they have to make it enforceable and given that police don’t carry around portable dynamometers, enforcing power limits is problematic.
The report mentioned above says that the government/politicians are concerned about tampering with any sort of power/speed limiting devices. The report also claims that progress will be slow, because since 1999, and the national uniform road rules, all of the states have to agree to the changes.
I am on record above as saying that 200w is sufficient power assist. This is because it is supposed to be “assist” and even 200w is enough to propel a fit rider (on a well designed e-bike – hey AllanD) along at insane speeds.
I have changed my opinion (as if anybody cares). Power is too blunt an instrument to use to regulate power assisted bicycles. Just increasing its limit to overcome a hill problem will cause more problems with kids riding up and down the street at 60kph instead of 40kph. Furthermore the police do not carry the equipment to measure it. There is not much point limiting power, I now think that there should not be any limit on power.
Speed is a much better thing to limit than power. But it is not without its problems. The higher the limit, the more people will take up e-biking instead of driving (and this is a good thing). At the same time, you don’t want to put young kids in charge of vehicles capable of serious speed. You also do not want ratbags ripping down the footpath at speed just because it is now easy. I think that there are lots of options, it just needs some sensible decisions.
Craig B
(I repeat my previous comments, that whether a rider pedals or not, should not be important. This requirement just excludes people.)”
Some good points here…
44 Comments
1. Speed limit footpaths for e-bikes and bicycles, say, 10-15km/ph.
2. Kids on e-bikes (follow state legislation for riding of normal bicycles/re: age limits footpath) are limited to 25km/ph, clocked going any faster, warning issued, parents notified.
3. 50km/ph limit (follows moped legislation for most of australia) on all electric bicycles for licence holders OR rider’s over 16.
Just a few idea’s to throw out there.
Should motorbike-standard helmets be compulsory for electric bike riders on the road?
If you promote a 50 kph speed limit for electric bicycles what would you do about those cyclists who regularly travel just a tad faster than this? I don’t have any objection to a reasonable blanket speed limit on paths. On the road surely the motor vehicle speed limit is the more sensible limit for cyclists, at least for those without electric assistance.
Gidday Craig
Bless you, you have seen the light and joined the brethren. LOL
As you have stated, on a well designed ebike power is a lesser issue. From my experience and 1000s of enquiries there is still a little bit of confusion on what ‘more power’ will give you.
So his is my 2 cents worth!
I provide 200, 300 and 500W systems. On the same bike, same terrain, etc, etc I can travel on a section of flat road at approx 35kph with the 200W system. With the 500W I will nudge 40kph; around a 14% increase.
Now for a given section of hill the 200W will move at 4-5 kph, while the 500W will move at around 10-12kph; a 140% increase.
People don’t appreciate the loss in power on a bike at the high speeds (LOTS of power needed to overcome wind resistance. Put you flat hand out window of car at 40kph). Why would they if they have not travelled that fast on a bike before ?
So the REAL benefit in more power is for hill climbing. Under the current law we have improved that through the use of our gear drive system. A proposal is doing government rounds for 300W. I think this is an acceptable amount for a electric bicycle. If you need more power then you really should consider an LA classified vehicle (eg Moped).
With pedal assist a rider can travel very fast. Again on my 200W test bike I have reached nearly 60kph for approx 300m before my unfit +50 body died. This is on a steel frame standard mountain bike.
Again from experience, my opinion is that power should be limited to assisting, up to a combined speed of 40kph. From this, most people should see that if the power was outputting for maximum speed, all the rider has to add is power to get another 10kph, which is average continuous effort for most riders (remember 10kph is added at higher speeds).
At 40kph, an elegant solution would be the controller backed off to keep speed at 40kph, or simple solution it just cuts out (bit hard on rider though).
Must get back to work. My parting comment: My major concern is people will expect/want more out of bicycles than they were designed for. Adding electrics should be seen as an accessory to enjoy the bike, not as a total means to avoid other transport more suited for distance, speed, etc.
Hello AllenD,
It has occurred to me that all cyclists (power-assisted or not), should support anything that is going to make power assisted bikes more attractive. My reasoning is that more people riding bikes makes it safer for everybody.
More cyclists on the road means that more people will know how to treat them in traffic. It means more profile, more votes and more acceptance.
There are lots of barriers to people taking up cycling, fitness, sweat, confidence. Power assisted bikes can help. Obviously power assistance helps the less fit, but there are also people who need to arrive at their destination fresh and not bathed in sweat. Power assistance can help here too. As for confidence, power assistance helps in two ways here, first is individual confidence, but also as the number of cyclists on the road increases, more people are likely to feel confident to get out and about.
On the topic of speed and power limits. I agree 100% that there needs to be some limit before you need licensing and registration, but if a vehicle is “like a bike”, it should be treated as a bike. I don’t know how bike-like a vehicle is that travels 50kph all of the time is, nor for vehicles that travel 40kph all of the time. To put this in perspective, Wollongong has a population of 180,000 people. It has about 150 in its racing cycle club. This year in its time-trial club championship, only three people averaged over 40kph. This is 2% of the club and 0.0016% of the population, and it is under race conditions with aero wheels and gear used only in time-trials. 40kph is not hard to do for short periods but natural limits keep the bike speeds at a safer level. Changes to legislation that make bikes less “bike-like” will be much harder to achieve than changes that just clarify issues and allow more people to take up cycling.
The important thing is what will fly with the politicians. The problem is that most people don’t ride bikes. If you ask for 50kph, you might get 40kph, if you ask for 40kph, you might get 35kph. But whatever it is, it needs to be fast enough to be attractive to lots more people. (And we need to get rid of the silly vague legislation that lead that judge to rule that because the cyclist used the engine all of the time and only pedalled part of the time, that the motor was not auxilliary.)
The flow on from Andrews comment about motorcycle helmets is that the faster more powerful the vehicle, the greater need for safety gear, vehicle standards, rider compentancy etc. We are talking abouts that require somewhere between very little and none of any of these. It is a trade off.
On a side note: Troy, on the “can we change the law” topic wrote about his dramas with his home-made 30cc petrol assist bike. You deserve applause for tying to stay under 200w, but a 30cc engine can be expected to produce a peak of about 850 watts. (see http://www.zbox.com.au/buying%20guide.htm)
The problem with petrol engines (especially small ones) is that their torque/power curve is very very peaky and they deliver their power at a limited range of revs. If you attempt to go faster, power drops of sharply and you don’t go faster. Even worse, if you come to a hill and slow down, power drops off and you go even slower (also called labouring) (unlike an electric motor where torque increases at slower speeds).
As I have mentioned before, my dad has done a similar home made job with an electric motor with similar results. To do a good job and to make use of the bike gears, it is going to take a lot more time, effort and skill then the average tinkerer is likely to put in (you might take this as a challenge). On the plus side, petrol engines can have a longer range than electric motors (depending on the size of the tank).
Craig B
Hi Craig
I too think electric bikes are all things to all people. I know of a number of examples where powered systems has put people on bikes that would normally not ride.
Back in the 70s when I was in the Navy we visited Holland. I was blown away BACK THEN of the infrastructure in place for cyclists; even their own light signals everywhere.
We do have a long way to go,but change is occurring.
With relation to power, speed, etc. There will never be a ‘good’ answer. My reason for picking 40kph is that it aligns with school zones and ‘appears’ to be a safe speed. But lets face it; you can hurt yourself on a bike at 10kph or walking at 2kph.
Whatever becomes the outcome it needs to ensure that bikes can handle the limits (a lot of cheap bikes and especially front drive hubs) are accidents waiting to happen; collapsing forks, speed wobble, etc etc.
The biggest issue that will always exist though, is idiots on the road. In a car on a bike or even walking; they do the wrong thing and we all pay.
On Monday, some NSW MPs met with RTA staff and discussed. The minutes are here: and the relevant part starts at the bottom of page 16 (showing page number 13). In summary, The Honourable Marie Ficarra, grilled the RTA and Mr Stuart-Watt responds by saying that they are working on it but it is a national thing.
That web site was: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/PARLMENT/committee.nsf/0/13c4c954c8ecd3ffca257504007a33b4/$FILE/081117%20Roads%20UNCORRECTED.pdf
I prefer the Petrol bike motors for their extended range.
The 200 watt power limit needs to be increased to something which is conversant with the size limit: say 1200 watts. (some American states allow 1000Watts)
It’s like the government is giving with one hand & taking away with the other. “you can have a 50cc motor but it’s only allowed to produce the power of a 10cc motor” ?? It just defies logic.
My petrol power assisted bike has a maximum speed of 45km/h, certainly not “too” fast & that’s MAXIMUM. Nobody runs an engine @ maximum revs ALL the time because it destroys motors very quickly.
So I cruise @ 40 km/h, Quite a reasonable speed considering that I can pedal @ 55km/h.
As for brakes: If I’m riding down hill @ 80km/h (remember things are “heavier” when going downhill) are my bicycles brakes adequate? Of course they are, Because it’s a bicycle. So it logically follows that those same brakes are adequate on flat ground @ 40km/h.
200/300 Watts , to use a colloquialism “wouldn’t pull the skin off a custard” & is therefore manifestly inadequate.
I’m a low income earner & can’t afford to run a car any more, I don’t qualify for cheap public transport fares (public transport costs too much & is unreliable anyway)& buses & such just don’t go where I need to go when I need to go there. I also don’t like turning up to work in the morning bathed in sweat & stinking all day & neither do the people I work closely with (not to mention the customers) because they can smell me. Additional benefits of Power assisted bicycles include: Get some exercise (as much as you want & stop if you start to sweat),Reduced emissions, reduced traffic congestion, reduced cost to the commuter.
If I was allowed a proper power limit I’d even agree to paying a nominal fee, say $100/year would be ok.
I’m in S.A. & I was recently pulled over by police on my bike. The copper SEIZED it & charged me with ride unrego & uninsured.
I don’t believe the seizure was legal & am currently seeking advice from a professional. I have also arranged an appointment with my local State M.P. to discuss these issues & will be writing to the State Transport Minister for the same reason.
I’d love to be involved in some kind of public protest or awareness/lobbying campaign. Imagine 300 Power assisted Bicycles & their riders outside Parliament House calling for change.
Apparently the seizure of my bike was legal. It is evidence for the charge of drive unreg’d & uninsured. If I plead “not guilty” they put the bike on the dyno & test its power output & I have to pay for the testing if I’m found guilty.
Looks like I’ll be pleading “no contest”.
Be aware. We need more Wares.
& a 1200 Watt power limit.
No longer will we need to get loans for cars so we can commute to our jobs and pay our wages to keep our cars running… All that saved money can be spent on owning our own home and keeping it.
I think speed limits are the answer,if you have ever gone faster than 50ks on your push bike you will know how uncomfertable it is. You naturaly want to sit on about 35-40ks anyway it doesnt matter how much power you have, who is it hurting anway and when did we become unaccountable for our own actions
here is a thought I can drive a street legal car on the road with as much power as i like, Why can you buy a car that is able to do 200-300kph and we are worried about 200w or 1200w,thats 1/4-one horse power,hang on i can ride a horse on the street,better get the police a tread mill for horses so we can make sure they are not too fit,oh and some dyno’s to mesure the out put of my hells angels push bike.How many patrol cars we got it wont cost much.We have got radars why not use them,may be thats too easy. GET REAL its not about safety,Its allways about money, they just cant work out how to tax it. untill then they will do their best to make it as hard as possible.
N.howard . I agree. While my bike is capable of almost 48km/h (that’s at “full noise”, not good for petrol motors anyway), I ride @ between 35 & 40km/h because it’s “comfortable” for me & for the motor. And, it IS about money. If the power limit was higher, PAB’s would be more useful, therefore there’d be a greater uptake of their use. Some people (not all, but some) may then not use their car anymore & the Gov. would lose revenue from rego fees. Retention of the “childs toy” 200W power limit is all about discouraging the use of PAB’s in order to maximise the states revenue stream. Call me a cynic if you will, but I just fail totally to see any other reason for the Governments’ 4 years of “consultation”, procrastination & “going nowhere” discussion on the issue. I’ve even had a meeting with my local State MP, who says he has written to the State transport Minister regarding my concerns, but I’m not holding my breath.
OH I neglected to mention, States make money from taxes on fuel too. More PAB’s means less fuel being bought so less money again for the States
Im going to write to my local MP then Rud, bad spelling and all maybe if we all do the same as Paulus something will get done, Ill be stuffed if they’re taking my bike. Power in numbers and bigger numbers for my bike
I’ve been driving a 300w ebike around a very flat city(in NZ) for 3 months now and it has a top speed of about 28km/h and can cruise at 23km/h. It can only handle a slight incline without me helping.
Almost every cyclist I encounter passes me.
In conclusion, for consistency ordinary bikes should be speed limited to 28km/h since the government has established that 300w is too much power and they are going faster than me.
Thank you for your recent contact with the NSW Disability Discrimination Legal Centre.
Your matter
From you email it appears that your matter centres on the following information:
1. You have a disability that is ‘degenerative back problems and hip trouble’ and as such you have difficulty using a conventional bicycle
2. You ride a Gia Carlo Electrical Assisted-Pedal Cycle which does not have a combined maximum output of 200 watts or more
3. Using this motor-assisted pedal cycle allows you (and other people with disability as well as the aged) mobility that you would not otherwise have
4. You believe your Cycle falls within the definition of an ‘exempt from registration’ vehicle under Part 2(15) of the Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 2007
5. Despite this you have been informed by a highway patrol officer that if you drive an unregistered and uninsured vehicle on a NSW road you will be fined
Please let us know if any of the above information is incorrect.
Our research
We have conducted some preliminary research into your matter. In the attached document Better regulation of motor-assisted pedal cycles: issues and solutions issued by the NSW RTA in February 2008 the issue of motor-assisted pedal-vehicles is discussed and in particular, it is noted on page 12 (in the first dot point) that there is a move within the RTA to ensure that a wider range of vehicles becomes exempt from registration s the benefits of these types of vehicles is recognised. You will also note that the Gia Carlo model is set out in Appendix 1 and is one of the exempt models (category AB) – this is because it does not have:
– Foot rests
– Easily removable pedals or chains
– The ability to operate without pedals or chains
– Throttle controlled motors
– Motors marked as above 200 watts
– Motors with power other than electric or solar power
It appears from our research that you should not be fined if you use your motor-assisted pedal cycle on a NSW road so long as you comply with bike safety laws (such as wearing a helmet) and do not exceed speed limits. However, it may be the case that you will not be allowed to travel on roads that cycles are usually restricted on, such as freeways or roads which allow high speeds (for example, highways, where the speed limit is 100 km/h). As you have informed us that you were told you would be fined by a highway patrol officer it may be the case that the officer was referring to these particular roads. If this is the case, then the safety issues involved with having low-speed 200 watt vehicles on a high speed highway may be a justification for the restriction (and possible fine).
Disability discrimination
If you would like more information on disability discrimination and the complaint making process please let us know – we can post you out information or you can access it on our website – http://www.ddlcnsw.org.au. We can also provide you with more specific advice regarding your matter on making a complaint to either the Anti-Discrimination Board or the Human Rights Commission if you wish to do so. However, we will need to obtain more details from you if this is the case. However, for the time being the more appropriate avenue for you may be to contact your local RTA motor registry to confirm that your vehicle is registration-exempt or to address your concerns to the Minister for Roads, Mr. Michael Daley or the RTA’s Director of Network Management, Michael Bushby, (who is currently the RTA’s Acting Chief Executive Officer).
Please note that if you do wish to make a disability discrimination complaint you must do so within 12 months of the date of discrimination.
We hope we have been of some assistance to you.
Kind Regards,
Elizabeth Meyer
Solicitor
NSW DDLC
come on everyone lets sue the pants of the government for discrimination especially since many e bike riders are disabled in some way or elderly so need power assist to get around anyone else with other idears on how to lgally stop these control freaks in the government and criminals dressed up as police stealing peoples property lets stand up united against these green when elections on fraudsters and give them a legal serve they deserve.
I ha ve contacted the organization for disabilities legal service and also the human rights commission and people may be able to sue for discrimination against the disabled for being unfairly targeted by police on their electric assisted pedal cycles even if the electic engine is the primary source of pro poulsion under the equal rights and opuortunity legislation as for instance a person with polio cannot ride a standard bike for any prolonged period they need the electric assist for primary propulsion so there must be a case for discrimination against the disabled as the 200 watts power assist is meant to be equal to an average persons pedal power anyway so i cant see the problem if a person uses the electric assist as primary means of propulsion especially if they have a disability or are an aged person,this is definatley affecting thousands of peoples lives and we need help with this problem badly.yours sicerly m French ph /0263424163/3 wollowra st cowra nsw 2794
Dear Mr French
The Premier has received your recent email concerning electronic bikes.
As the matter you have raised primarily concerns the administrations of the Minister for Roads, the Hon M J Daley, MP, and the Minister for Police, Minister for Lands, and Minister for Emergency Services, the Hon A B Kelly, MLC, the Premier has arranged to bring your approach to the Ministers’ attention.
You may be sure that your comments will receive close consideration.
Yours sincerely
Vanessa Karkousi
Office of the Premier
thepremier [www.nsw.gov.au@mail.cabinet.nsw.gov.au]if any one else has some usefull recomendations abuot some common sense electric bicycle laws seem i may be getting through but i cant think of all the angles myself so i need everone elses help who have either been fined or had their bikes conviscated to write or fax or email the premier on the above email adress as there is power in numbers,
Ive had a win of sorts with a meeting at cowra police station with highway patrolman Criss pethic and inspecror Mclean.I parked my bike out the front of the police station and showed the bike to them and they took my word that i could pedal it without electrical assistance if necessary the only bone of contension being the hub drive as i explained to them its really splitting hairs as a hub drive is the best desighn and being 200 watts it really doesn’t make any sense to try and ban hub drives as with no chains and only one moving part being the wheel rotating around the hub theres much less chance of mechanical problems and from a common sense point of view if a bolt on electrical assist engine is 200 watts and a hub drive is also 200 watts I really cant see where the problem is and if the wheel and engine is one and the same the wheel bolts onto the bicycle anyway so technically the engine is still bolted on to the bike whichever way you look at it,anyway i am currently riding my bike with no problems from police at the moment shaking hands with the police inspector and thehighway patrolman and now feel i was treated with respect and with fairness but the wording of the law on pedal assisted bicycles still needs to be clearly re written to avoid problems in the future for anyone else and it needs to be done asap.Yours sincerely m French ps thanks Katrina and Gaenor and all the bteam for your help with my electric bike problem send me a copy of your petition against the closing of rail lines i will sighn it for you.
Whatever limits you set, people can ignore them. Someone can just as easily put a 1000 watt motor on a bike when under a 200 watt legal limit as they can under a 300 watt legal limit. You surely have to frame the laws primarily to control and limit the behaviour of law abiding citizens. Those who are happy to break the law will do it regardless. Electric motors and batteries for electric bikes are out there, and those who have no regard for the law will do whatever they want, as they always have.
To help stop children abusing powerful e-bikes, why not introcude an age limit? It should be relatively easy for a policemen to spot an 8 year old on a adult sized e-bike and pull them up. (and confiscate the bike, etc).
Another perhaps rather obvious idea is to introduce a new e-bike category for those who have car/motorcylce driving licenses, that allows use of much larger motors, say up to 500/1000 watts? Surely someone who is legally permitted to drive cars and motorcylces at up to 110 kph, can be trusted to drive even a powerful e-bike?
As its really all about money, the only way the government will budge iis if they can introduce some new scheme to collect revenue from ebike users, perhaps via some kind of ebike registration, and/or an ebike license. Like all self-respecting officials, they need to be bribed to do anything.
As regards power, the main benefit of a powered bike is to be able to climb hills, oppose headwinds or travel long distance without becoming exhausted or swimming in a pool of sweat. Even relatively unfit elderly riders (55) such as myself can maintain a reasonable speed on the level without recourse to power assistance. If all the roads in my area were flat and someone could guarantee there would never be any strong winds, I don’t think I would bother even to consider power assistance. Whilst long distance riding can be accomplished with a small motor (200 watts), and even benefits in terms of battery endurance, hill climbing and headwinds require larger amounts of power. It seems that the issue the authorities have without increasing the power is with the ebike then being able to travel fast on the straight.
However, I see no problem with the police regulating a speed limit for ebikes – it can be done the same way as with any other form of motor transport. Simply allow ebikes to have motors up to 1000 watts, then set a speed limit of perhaps 40 kph and enforce that in the usual manner. Of course ebike riders can and probably will break the speed limit, but then so do motorcycle and car drivers, but we dont limit the power of those, do we?
Speed of bicycles is same as the existing road laws ie 50Kmph or 60 or 70 or 80 as indicated.
My bike has no speedo and I dont have an e-bike yet. Measured my downhill speed once at almost 70Kmph with GPS, and tailing a large vehicle can even reach an estimated 60Kmph on level ground !.
The last thing we need is more stupid laws and limits for bicycles, cause then bicycles would need registrations and calibrated speed indicators, you would need a road licence and fees etc.
well first if you have an e bike see your solicitor get him to contact Mr Geofrey Casey of Garden and Montgomery Solicitors cowra@gardm.com.au because he knows the bicycle law back to front or contact him directly at his office on 0263421622 and get either Mr Casey who has documented proof that Mr Colin Jackson of sydneys RTA has said that any electric bicycle whether or not they look like a standard bicycle or not,if it can be pedaled without power is classed as bicycle so long as it doesnt exceed 200 watts then contact your local member with this imformation or and Mrs L ee Rhiannon on 0292303551 or email on leerhiannon@parliment.nsw.gov.au ask your local member to set up a meeting with your local police station to sort out any problems your having with the local highway patrol,if you do this before you are fined its unlikley that youll have any further trouble,and for god sake email mr Michael Daley transport minister
office@daley.minister.nsw.gov.au
for nsw and tell him what you think of the situation,if everone who has been affected voted against the government on this issue it would change things,also email or write to the opposition parties and ask for their alternative transport laws or proposed legislation and if they dont have one yet ask and demand they come up with one.Stoner, Andrew
* Leader of The Nationals
* Shadow Minister for State Development
* Shadow Minister for Roads and Ports
* The Nationals member
In his capacity as Member for Oxley:
Phone (02) 6562 6190
Fax (02) 6563 1355
oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au .I have done all these things and now am being left alone by police on my gia carlo 200 watt electric bicycle so how about all those effected by the anti alternative transport government do the same as i did,most of us are not breaking the law so stand up for youself or we will loose more of our rights yours sincerly m french.
. Anthony Albanese is now the transport minister,change like the weather dont they
Hi Michael
Thank you very much for the information. I have also sent it to Andrew Constance MP, Shadow Minister for Ageing and Disability Services.
Kind Regards
Andrew Stoner
>>> “michael french” 6/09/2009 11:09 am >>>
First name: michael
Surname: french
Email: m.french@live.com.au
Message: I sent the nsw disability discrimination legal service contact details as this imfo may help others being persecuted by police for riding their power assisted bicycles especially the disabled,they have said the disabled may have a case against the nsw police service or the government,yours sincerely m french .
Thanks Andrew,I have detailed files at home in Cowra which KatrinaHodgekingsons office has copies .My Solicitor Geoffrey Casey has aphone interview recorded for legal purposes with Mr Colin Jacksonsenior official with the rta Sydney who categorically states that thegia carlo power assisted bicycle is exempt from registration and isclassed as a bicycle as it can be propelled by human power as Idemonstrated as I rode it approximatly 4 kilometres from wollowra stCowra to Kendal st Cowra.Anyway I thought a person was innocent untillproven guilty so if the power limit is 200 watts and the e bike can bepedalled then how is it the case that anyone should be fined at allunless riding in a dangerous manner?Many dissabled people would benefitfrom some light exercise instead of being consigned to a mobilityscooter where they become obese and what little muscle strength remainsis lost through muscle wasting due to not being used.Makes no sense atall that an e bike with a maximum speed of 25 kilometres an hour on the level ground can beconsidered dangerous when a standard bicycle can do double thatdownhill and mountain bikes with power assist are not being targeted bypolice when they have identical power assist engines being 200 wattsand do the same speed 25 kilometers an hour.Yours sincerely M French psmy solicitor Geoffrey Casey can be contacted to confirm seniorofficial Colin Jacksons statements on 0263421622 through Garden and Montgomerie solicitors Cowra 12 to 14 Kendal st Cowra 2794 ________________________________________________________________
well I just got so sick and tired of fighting the corupt police in nsw,even got email permission of inspector of cowra police to ride my gia carlo bicycle which when battery removed,battery weighs 13 kilos,4 kilos if L ion battery,can be ridden as a standard bicycle,was advised that I could ride it as such or with power assist if pedaling at all times,anyway was again pulled up by same highway patrolman,cowra has one of the highest rate of break and enter and violent crime in the state and all the police are interested in is fining people for minor matters,it is a sick joke on the town,well I have moved to queensland where I have had no worries,nsw is being run by idiots,email new premier se if shes any better or just a puppet to the oil companies
The 200 watt limit on power assisted bikes is ridiculous. I fail to see why we should propose a power limit of 1000 or 1200 watts or a speed limit such as 40 or 50 kms/hour. The issue should be safety. The brakes, frame, gears etc must be as strong as required for the power of the bike. The speed limit on streets and roads for e-bikes should be the same as for motor bikes. It would make sense to impose a speed limit on bike paths for everyone’s safety. And all power assisted bikes should be subject to sensible Australian Standards,with registration and insurance costs, related to their power output and weight, just like cars and motor bikes. It also makes sense for licensing of riders of power assisted bikes, just like motor bike riders. I think it is great to find this forum about the need for sensible laws for power assisted bikes. Good luck with the campaign everyone.
Current 200W is about good to carry the extra motor weight and is completelly useless on road. If you loose 200W motor while riding, you won’t even notice. 300W isn’t much different.
Minimum 600W is recommended as the top speed is still only 30kph. Optimal power is 1kw at 40kmph and is safer on road with cars than slow motors.
hi just wondering i live in qld would i be able to have a electric scooter with a small battery but have on boeard a very small petrol motor charging the battery at the same time. is that not legal for a scooter? its not legal for a bike, but nothing is said about petrol motors that aren’t part of the scooter?
Hi WA states that an electric bicycle cannot be ridden on a shared path with power engaged and you must be over sixteen to ride one. I find this extraordinary as unpowered bicycles can and do go faster and that often it is young people riding them at fast speed. Does anybody know of any attempts to overturn this legislation in WA?
Paul Judd has contacted me saying:
(1)I have read others forums on this. Considering that racing cyclist can momentarily out put 1kW in sprint and I put out 500W on pedal power bike at Melbourne show years ago 200W is a bit low. Then again many people are not exercising enough, i.e putting in enough effort so 200W seems low to them. On my bike I can maintain average of 30km hour with panniers on (full of study books) between Healesville and lilydale. I can go uphill at ~20km/hour from Healesville to my place near Maroondah dam instead of 10km hour.
The average person can put out 75W all day according to literature. This decreases with age and is higher in youths. A young tradie should be able to output 500W for short periods of time according to literature. 200W is OK, 300W would be nice. 500W is ample if fully laden but good brakes are needed!
(2)BV says new laws are out:
New e-bike rules in Victoria:
“29 April 2010. VicRoads has clarified the rules on what can and can’t power an electrically assisted bicycle.
The new rules, published in the Government Gazette on 21 April 2010, also clamp down on electrically powered scooters that were pretending to be bikes and travelling in the bike lane.
Under the regulations the maximum power permitted for e-bikes and e-scooters is 200 watts.
A e-bike is referred to as “a bicycle to which is fitted one auxiliary motor that has, or more than one auxiliary motor that have in combination, a maximum ungoverned and continuous rated power output of 200 watts or less.”
The new law means that electric scooters capable of more than 10kph will have to be registered to travel on the road.
The gazettal comes just days before the announcement of the new European standard for e-bikes.
It is expected that all Australian States will move to adopt the new European standard.
E-bikes have tremendous potential in Australia, but so far they have failed to take off. The lack of a proper national standard has resulted in the the bike industry delaying the introduction of mass produced high quality e-bikes.
The damage done by a vehicle in any accident is determined by the kinetic energy of the vehicle (or the rider). It’s proportional to its mass and its velocity squared. The constraints on e-bikes could be :
1. maximum mass (25kg excluding rider and luggage?)
2. maximum speed (20km/hr ?)
Both of these are easily measured by enforcement authorities. It should be noted that speed is the really critical factor – doubling the speed increases the kinetic energy of the bike (and rider) by four times. It is in dissipating this energy that bodies are mangled.
Car has 1000cc, 1600cc, 2000cc, 3000cc with speed from 0km ~ 220km
based on the logic for electric bike.
please change the law immediately for all the cars !!!
LIMIT all the cars to have 1000cc with speed limit of 110km
Actually everyone need to pass the road regulation test to understand the road signs,…..
Hi.
Am an ebiker and know about safety. The most dangerous thing on the roads ATM are cars.
.
And QLD laws only state internal combustion engines. I could make nitro roof tar rocket go as fast as anything.
We ebikers are pretty smart, they want to legislate us like children?
We will show them how dumb arse they are with loop holes just invented to make these law makers look stupid..
The new pedalic laws are inspired by those who yell at us WHY DONT YOU PEDAL and people with show rooms of pedalic bikes NOBODY WANTS.
Cummon make me pedal. Im sure the public will be much safer knowing I get fines for not pedaling. While a hundred children are ploughed down in front driveways by the next door neighbors 4 wheel drive, You will be much safer,
People who make laws in this state make them for the fun of it or in contempt of real social welfare needs. They send their kids to day care because they cant stand them and instinctually turn to parent the adults in this country. Hence the nanny state.
Why? They are bored and their jobs are involved in getting into others business, get a life.
We have deniability.
Where does any of this law appear to my eyes. Any cyclist are not required to read the learners road rules handbook and have no license nor have any agreement with state road authorities to do anything other than use “our” public areas as we see fit.
Since the Car became our main source of transport all our public areas have been over taken by the government.
A city needs to 5 times larger to accommodate parking and access, It terrible doing anything in this world without a car now.
Ahhh but along comes an Ebike. You can park 10 ebikes in a single car spot, if you even need a car spot. You can ride from shop to shop with a trailer and life becomes sooo much easier.
They banned smoking near shop doors because of the smell and passive smoking, blah. WTF, Im sitting out the hospital and some quake dumps a carby full of petrol exhaust in my face reverse 45deg and looks down at me through his nose because I have a cigarette in my mouth.. This happen every day I sit in town and relax in the sun.
Rude.
I doubt this message will make it through…
But I made a post here a few months ago about what I think about the police and E-Bikes, however I gave too much real legal info.
The post was not accepted (deleted/wiped out) because I rocked the boat too much.
Careful what you say here…
Ride your powered bikes as you wish I say…
At the worst, have it in a “Switched off” state when they come collecting their precious money…
Ha!
I might have been wrong about my theory, if so I’m sorry.
It may have been the links I put that killed my post. Sorry.
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I think motor cycyles helmets should be required for e-bikes. manadatory helmets for bicycles are a good idea too. You head is easily damaged. 25 years I did a Uni holiday job looking at the damage to helmets people were wearing when they had a motorcycle accident in which they died. I did the job with rubber gloves because there had been a lot of bleeding in some, at the time of death. On scooters people like the open face type, but several of those I looked at had little damgaed but the people had died of head injuries, obvioulsy when their jaw and face hit the ground as thye had no chin piece. So get a helmet with chin piece. You head is important. On holiday in the greek islands I amde them find helmts for my girlfreind and I or I would not hire the bike. Hlemts are a necessery hassle.
They still wont save you if you drive into a train at 160 km/hr, but in the helmet liner of that person’s helmet I did find a small bag of cocaine which was handed over to the police, during that job.
E-bikes are very cheap in China and the best models now out have ranges of up to 200km. The bigger ones have heaps of storage too. They end up much more expesnive here. These can make huge diffrence in cities and even country towns. its octs me $2.60 in diesel to go there and back to the video store where I live
They have to meet ADR rules but I am thinking of buying one the next time i go to China for work , if I can find a model that meets ADR rules. I have had 3 diffrent 750 cc motorcycles and have a license so thats not a problem to me. I would not be suprised the green slip and rego fee is more in cost per year than the total cost an average model costs to buy in China.